Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

I think their bigger problem is there's shit for documentation. You get a big list of function signatures and if you actually want to know how you're supposed to use anything you find the WWDC session from 4 years ago and hope it's still accurate.


A WWDC session, I might add, with a mildly relevant title and rarely a hyperlink from the relevant documentation, let alone a timestamp.


But with a full searchable transcript


Machine generated transcript*


What's even worse is they used to have great documentation, then for some nonsense reason archived it and replaced it with this wannabe JavaDocs crap with vague function explanations that leave more questions open than they resolve.

They now tell people to watch WWDC videos as if those relatively short videos contained the same amount of information a proper API documentation does.


honestly i don't see this as Apple-specific but more of a sign of the times. i've seen a few libraries and vendor platforms we use at work with the same style of documentation (really lack thereof).


Microsoft's documentation quality very noticeably fell of a cliff about a decade ago. Now most of their public APIs and SDKs have hundreds of thousands of "documentation" pages that are just the name of the function with spaces added between the words. There might also be a listing of the parameters, which helpfully tells you that "string param1" is called "param1" and takes a string as the data type.


Yeah, the extreme basics seems to be the trend. We've actually had a lot of trouble due to this exact problem with one particular vendor now. Even repeated requests to improve their documentation are completely ignored or laughed off. it's too bad I don't have the purchasing power otherwise I'd suggest we should find a different vendor.


But if you find anything with the dark-blue "documentation archive" header, then you know it's some good stuff. Though sometimes outdated.


We've come from the monstrous Inside Macintosh tomes, to that early OS X documentation (that's now in the documentation archive), to this seemingly programmatically generated from doc comments thing.


Next they'll start generating documentation from code using LLMs...


That's an odd way to spell "AI hallucination"


Somebody told me that the quality of a company is directly proportional to the quality of its documentation...


Boeing's documentation is probably excellent.

In general it is assumed that documentation is the boring part and paying attention to it is a sign of quality. But where do you put people who prefer writing and/or teaching to thinking long and deep about product issues ?


Perhaps the biggest issue with the 737 MAX was lack of documentation. Boeing consciously chose to completely omit several new features (most notoriously MCAS) from the pilot manuals in order to make it seems like nothing important was changed that would require retraining 737 NG pilots on a simulator.

In a sense, this is far worse than what most tech companies do since it is a life-and-death issue and Boeing has made a very conscious effort to hide details here, rather than just being lazy.


One could say that "the point" of MCAS was to be an implementation detail, something that you would often deliberately hide from software documentation so that users don't design around internal details.

There's something of a history of aerospace vendors omitting "implementation details" that end up contributing to serious accidents (e.g. if you get an Airbus far enough out of the normal envelope protections, you lose stall warning), and an equally sordid history of flight and maintenance crews improvising procedures to the observed (rather than designed/specified) behavior of aircraft systems.

Arguably, the single biggest systematic risk in the current pilot training system is that crews overlearn to the implementation details of their training, rather than the actual principles and flight manuals (e.g. training inadvertently training for quick engine shutdowns, when the consequences of shutting down the wrong engine in reality are much more serious).


> There's something of a history of aerospace vendors omitting "implementation details" that end up contributing to serious accidents (e.g. if you get an Airbus far enough out of the normal envelope protections, you lose stall warning),

And Airbus control laws and protections are well defined and studied by pilots training for them.


They are now, just as MCAS behavior is well-defined and covered in conversion training now. They were not covered as well prior to AF447.


You encourage them to blog about it and you aggregate the posts into documentation - somehow. (I'm sure there's people for that, or an AI, or something). They had to explain it when they implemented it - explain it on a post. Confluence. Somewhere.

You're right though.


>Boeing's documentation is probably excellent.

it isn't, it's just ISO/NADCAP conforming.


Tech writer. Google famously employs quite a few of them for internal documentation.


I've read one of the manuals for the 787 management software stack, and it was... beautiful. It read like a novel. I read it twice on the train for the simple pleasure of it.


I guess mathworks is one of the best companies ever.


Microsoft has excellent documentation. So that's one counterexample. :)


It was excellent. It's a mess last time I looked.


Their documentation for the very newest stuff contains very obviously AI-generated inaccurate and misleading crap.


Don't believe me? Go look at it yourself. They've even "edited" the old docs with AI slop.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/u...

"The characteristics of the endpoint determine the size of each packet is fixed and determined by the characteristics of the endpoint."


That sentence was already there _at least_ since Dec 2022, stop seeing AI everywhere.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221214171028/https://learn.mic...


They were using an automated editing tool before that.


Moving goalpost + evidence needed


If they used AI the sentence would be coherent


No they don't. Just last week I was looking for something, found a Google result from Microsoft's docs, but opening it resulted in a page saying they're moving docs around, this one isn't being moved, fuck off. No content, no link to the content.


Most of the time I just get function signatures that are already exposed via intellisense.

Sometimes they actually have examples of how to use it, but most are just Javadoc level, and of minimal use.


I can attest to that. I used to freelance doing porting about 10 years ago, and the main way of having a stable event loop for a game on macOS is not really anywhere clear in the documentation, at least not anywhere I could find.

Libraries and SDL, GLFW and Sokol handle this for you, and I had to poke inside them to actually figure out how to get the same performance of other games.

In a nutshell, the trick is simple, you call [NSApplication finishLaunching] and do a while-loop yourself instead of calling [NSApplication run].


Most of this stuff uses APIs greater than four years old, so you're probably not getting those videos unless you look at third party rehosts.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: