The reality is that farming only works in medium to large scale, people that try to grow food for themselves do it either because they have no other option and will die otherwise or they have too much money and time in their hands.
My grandpa was a medium scale farmer for most of his life and when he retired he kept a couple dozen cows for milk and he paid every single month to keep it going. It was his hobby and he knew that, he said he'd need a couple hundred again to make it at least pay for itself.
It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.
> people that try to grow food for themselves do it either because they have no other option and will die otherwise or they have too much money and time in their hands.
Most people that I know that have backyard gardens aren't doing it for the majority of their calories (I don't know people growing wheat in their backyard), but lots of people grow in their backyard because it is more convenient and the vegetables are always fresh and flavorful.
I grow an herb garden with stuff like basil, chives, parsley, oregano, etc. plus some smaller vegetables like peppers and tomatoes. I grow the herbs because many times they don't even have fresh herbs available at the supermarket or are inconvenient (e.g. a giant thing of parsley when I just want a few snips), and the vegetables taste better.
Herbs should be anyone’s starter for a garden and absolutely makes for an easy break-even.
We had a great run with heirloom (Cherokee Purple) tomatoes this year, purchased for $5.99 per plant at Lowe’s. Our raised bed cost about $100 to build and fill with soil. I spent $100 to build a deer fence. I also bought a $20 jug of Miracle Grow feed. Let’s just cocktail-napkin the water at $10 for the season, and say I have $250 in input to start my garden this year.
I got, at most, $15 dollars worth of tomatoes for the two plants. I could increase that and get into canning to reap some more value, but it’s a hobby to produce neat exotics I can’t even buy if I wanted to. Hopefully I can amortize the upstart costs over the years and achieve a break even on a long enough timescale :)
I'd love to grow tomatoes, but I live where it's too hot and they'll stop flowering sometime in June.
But I'm wondering if you're not growing your tomatoes right, or the cultivars you have are not great? One of the biggest issues I run into when I lived somewhere I could grow is the plants getting so large they uproot the posts I have them staked up with if it gets windy.
Good soil goes a long way, you'll want it to be mostly a decomposed manure. Then you'll really want to get the biggest plant you can find at the store as early as weather allows, then bury most of the plant you buy. If you're just planting it like a normal plant, you've wasted a ton of its potential.
In one of the best years I've had my plants grew nearly 8 feet tall and with only 4 bushes I had to have the kids load up a wagon with tomatoes and give away them to the neighbors I had so many.
Cherokee Purple and Black Krim are two of my favorites, but they admittedly don't always grow quite as vigorously as some other (less tasty) varieties. Still, they grow 5 to 6 feet high and produce 40+ pounds of fruit per plant. And the tomato growing season here is only mid-May through mid-September.
I've had great success with the 40% setting tomatoes all season and my temps push 110F in the summer. One thing I learned the hard way, in addition to this, leave the plants bushy so it shades internally.
Eh, this year we had over 60 days of 100F+ weather, with temps not going below 85 at night for a considerable portion of that. Even if I grow them in the shade of the porch they won't get flowers for a month at a time.
Ya I live in a very dry climate and the nights cool down and evapotranspiration cools a bunch, so maybe that's why it works so well.
I was very impressed with the material though. Complete game changer in my environment. I can grow all kinds of things through summer. Parsley, lettuce, I even had Brussels sprouts and rhubarb go through the heat this summer looking perky the whole time.
So you buy a tomato that is 8" tall at the store. When you plant it you'll only want 2 to 3 inches of it sticking out of the soil. You bury it deeper than the soil and roots it comes with. The now buried stem will grow roots and the existing roots will also grow and reach more deep soil.
No offense but that seems like most expensive way to farm it. I mean I get it, you want something that looks nice and works, and not is just an old bucket filled with dirt (which is perfectly fine way to recycle broken bucket, just ugly one), but if you just want tomatoes you don't need to spend all that much so that cost is a bit overcalculated imo.
But still, yeah, at that scale its not much more than a hobby, certainly not a way to save any actual money.
> Hopefully I can amortize the upstart costs over the years and achieve a break even on a long enough timescale :)
Or some disease or insect will destroy it. The wonders of farming...
Buy seeds, plant some in a beer cup of potting soil ~30-45d before the last frost. Don't need to worry with seed starting mix. Don't worry about how tall they get, just plant it almost all sideways.
> I got, at most, $15 dollars worth of tomatoes for the two plants
What were your lbs of yield per plant?
I do cherry tomatoes in 5gal buckets and get ~1.5-2 lbs per bucket. Soil mix is leftovers from contractors mixed with composter stuff and peat moss. Actual garden does better. Retail price for that qty is $7. I have too many buckets set up...
I own a farm and while I agree that people generally have no idea what goes into farming, I feel like the "tech workers would cry if they ever had to actually farm" statement that is so common on these types of threads is usually coming from someone with experience on a conventional farm.
There are alternative methods of farming like permaculture, and people all over the world use them to grow an abundance of food in an area not much bigger than a large backyard. They are specifically geared towards better utilization of space, and creating natural systems that replace the need for traditional inputs and labor.
Growing someone's entire diet is no small challenge, this is true. But it's also not an all-or-nothing proposition. Someone with zero experience farming could plant some perennial herbs on their balcony, and discover the joy of cooking with them (and replacing a $5 plastic clamshell of Thai basil.) From there, year-by-year, people can get more ambitious with what they grow.
> I own a farm and while I agree that people generally have no idea what goes into farming, I feel like the "tech workers would cry if they ever had to actually farm" statement that is so common on these types of threads is usually coming from someone with experience on a conventional farm.
But it's comparison of "job in IT vs job in farming" (i.e. actually making money in both cases), and not "just farming enough for your food needs"
"making enough for your needs" is few crates of apples, not working whole day with a bunch of temporary workers gathering it while tractors are going around gathering the crates, often in burning sun.
Turning it around it would be like saying "job in IT is SUPER easy" but meaning just setting up a home router once a week (because that's what "farming for yourself" is compared to running profitable farm)
I broadly agree, and certainly for staples and root crops, it blows my mind how cheap supermarkets can be. The amount of work, land, pesticides, fertilizers, seeds, etc. it takes to grow a few kilogram of carrots manually is insane compared to being able to buy at 50p/kg at the supermarket. That really shows the level of industrialisation and automation involved in large scale farming.
Which is why I focus on specific crops that I've identified as being valuable or useful to me.
Basil, of course, I already mentioned, and similar to basil is other green and leafy veg, such as spinach, mint, coriander, rocket, spring onions and cress. They grow so quickly and easily that I guess the majority of the cost in a supermarket is the packaging and logistics. I also grow a lot of soft fruits such as strawberries because supermarket fruits are expensive and bland tasting compared to a freshly picked ripe strawberry. Squashes are good to grow as they're quite prolific producers without much effort, yet fairly expensive to buy in the supermarket. Garlic, chilli, tomato, runner beans and leeks I grow mainly because I can choose the cultivars I like, and find they're tastier than the ones I can get in the supermarket.
Of course, the biggest input I'm obviously not accounting for is my time, but as it's an enjoyable hobby that's good for my physical and mental health, that doesn't factor in for me. Plus, I think it's a good life skill to know how to grow food, and it's interesting to try and do it in a sustainable way, e.g. permaculture, supporting pollinators, producing your own compost, propagating your own seeds, capturing and storing water onsite, etc.
I certainly wouldn't quit my job and become a farmer, but I do think growing some of your own food is something everyone should at least try once if they have the space. Also as a general rule, animals require a larger scale to make a profit than do vegetables.
Tech saying "I'll become farmer" to escape tech is very amusing, especially how data-driven the large scale farming is, and how small scale farming is getting priced out by large scale farming.
I'm not a farmer, but I did some tech for farming and you would be surprised how tech driven it is. Agriculture was probably the first industry that used satellite imagery outside of military on the large scale.
If someone is Silicon Valley web app developer and went farming, they actually could be going deeper into tech than escape it.
I think most people expressing this sentiment are referring to small scale homesteads or hobby farms, which I have found to be a great break from desk time.
This dynamic changes if they are growing produce to manufacture value added,preserves items.
If you are producing cheese, or tomato sauce, or pesto, for example, the farming activity makes a lot more sense financially. Trying to grow and sell produce is a non-starter. If you can turn it into a shelvable, in-demand, item you can diversify and greatly increase or even just capture profit that you would normally lose.
As I mentioned, diversity is key. You can just deal in one or a few crops. You have to have a range of crops and value added products distributed to a variety of markets and you need to be selling directly.
We have some ultra small farms working here in Ohio doing very well and many have been for generations. It's damn near foolish to shop Kroger for produce here. I know I don't. Not until the ice hits.
Even producing value-added items is a lot of work and mostly a labour of love than of business and this is assuming you have all the stuff you need available around you. These farms in Ohio are the outliers, even here in Florida, where you can technically grow almost the whole year, small farms are rare and usually pretty close to the big cities, most of the time serving as tourist destinations.
If you're going to make cheese, you'll need a lot of cows (even for cheap cheese you'd need at least 10 liters of milk to get to a kilo of cheese) or someone near you that produces enough milk for you to buy and make cheese out of it.
Food production is a heavily specialized, mechanized and complicated job, you need a lot of support and resources around you even for basic canning and dairy products. And then you also have to figure out a way to sell these products to someone at a price they're willing to pay.
It's not by accident you'll see areas heavily focused on specific products (like Winsconsin and cheese) because everyone is, intentionally or not, pooling resources and creating the infrastructure to make it all possible.
There's a traditional soft cheese that is a staple where I'm from in Brazil that is made like queso fresco, but we mix in clarified butter at the end of the cook (it's called butter cheese/queijo de manteiga) that is at risk of disappearing because it's getting harder and harder to produce it locally due to the lack of milk producers and other infrastructure as most milk production has moved elsewhere.
> There's a traditional soft cheese that is a staple where I'm from in Brazil that is made like queso fresco, but we mix in clarified butter at the end of the cook (it's called butter cheese/queijo de manteiga) that is at risk of disappearing because it's getting harder and harder to produce it locally due to the lack of milk producers and other infrastructure as most milk production has moved elsewhere.
are there no vertically integrated cheese production there ? If there is demand for milk why cow farmers are moving away?
Because due to climate change and human action the land has been drying up over the past 50 years and it's not economical to raise cattle there anymore.
Do you think people who say they will retire and become farmers think they’re going to become like legit, money making farmers? Or do you think they know they want a constructive hobby close to the earth to do while they wait to die, and “farming” (almost always meaning hobby farming) sounds like a constructive hobby to wait out the end?
It’s a meme at this point to make fun of people who want to do some form of labor that doesn’t make a good career when they retire. Of course farming is a worse job than being a developer, that’s why this person is a developer! But many things that make hard or even terrible jobs make great hobbies when you’re not doing it to make a career. And people who like to get things done still often don’t want their last accomplishment before they die to be “delivered corporate value in Q3 by…”
Yeah, if your granddad kept 24+ cows just for his own milk needs then that's surely a loss, but that's atypical and extremely inefficient. My family is similar, and my grandfather was a dairy farmer, but that was the first thing to go. A dairy is one of the things that scales very well and is just cheaper and easier to buy mass produced milk, but we still garden and raise animals for meat and produce an abundance on a few acres. Grazing animals take up a lot of space so I'm referring to just the garden. Cows, goats, chickens, geese, hogs to root out nutgrass. Deer and rabbits are so plentiful they are a problem. Our main external input that we can't really self source is fuel for the tractor. It's not a massive operation by any means and not a major source of income as everyone has normal non-farming jobs. But it's not a loss, produces far more than we need with not an extreme amount of labor. It's a 100+ year old farm and is mostly forest and timberland now but used to be cotton fields.
It's really not that crazy of an idea to be a mostly self sufficient farm. I would say that including non-grazed pasture we have under 8 acres for crops. Probably an additional 30 for grazing. Of course we buy groceries of things we don't grow but if that wasn't an option we would still eat plenty just less varied.
The important thing is to just have good land I think. Most of Americas farmland isn't great land for farming, it's just flat or ideal for a specific crop, which is great for mass production. The downside is that it's less productive and requires a ton of inputs with a limited and very time sensitive growing season.
My dad pretty much went from "doing well" to "dropping it and getting different job while selling land to development" within the span of my childhood and teenage years.
Small farming was viable few decades ago, now you'd have to make some speciality fancy food there to be profitable, not anything mass market.
Small vinery? Sure you might have some chance. Potatoes and wheat ? Good fucking luck.
> It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.
Clarkson's farm is essentially a documentary about that lmao. Rich man invests a lot and with ton of help earns less than a thousand a year from quite a lot of land.
When they say that, they might mean they live on a house on acreage and a stablehand feeds and maintains the horses and such. Such arrangements are actually pretty common among the "farmer gentry" class. I've even seen this expanded to the farm becoming a full on small business with sales done at the farmers market, again though the owners are not the ones digging in the dirt or selling product, they hire hands.
I largely agree, but I think there's room for small-scale operations to grow hard-to-transport food (mulberries!) while preserving local varieties and serving as a genetic repository. In a sense, it's insurance against failures and shortcomings of the global food system - it'd be more efficient to go without, but it's nice to maintain a backup system of plants, systems, and knowledge.
> It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.
When I hear this sentiment expressed and/or express this sentiment myself, it generally has nothing to do with the farming, but is rather meant to convey an interest in a life as far removed as possible from the stresses and bullshit and growing moral conflicts of working in tech.
Of course, there is probably no industry that is immune from any of these things, or even immune from tech itself.
But consider all of the posturing of the "farmer" being of-the-land and small-town and away from the chaos of city life and away from Silicon Valley ivory towers. All the folksy hokey drawl and front-porch iced-tea that people like to put up, especially politicians and entertainment performers in the country music industry. All the idyllic glorification of the people who "feed the world." It's all beautiful sunrises over fields of grain, people in work clothes who don't have much but still have it all. Obviously, none of that reflects reality any more than a tech worker jumping into that world. It overlooks the backbreaking, bank-breaking labor involved at the lowest levels, and the exploitation of an entire sector of the economy from top to bottom, beginning with government subsidies handed out to a rapidly growing corporate oligarchy swallowing up family farms that have produced our food for generations and converting them to nightmarish factory farming operations of unspeakable horrors. But if golden sunrises is what people want to pretend it is, then that's as good as anything for a tech worker to pretend to want when they fantasize about standing up from their seat at a row of workstations in a FAANG labor facility and walking out.
Of course "these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real." Nobody who hasn't done it does. Just like nobody who hasn't worked in tech knows what it is like working in tech for real.
The point isn't to sincerely go into farming. The point is to imagine getting out of an industry that mills "intellectual labor" into advertising revenue for billionaires. If people like to imagine "flyover country" being some unspoiled unappreciated paradise, then people who genuinely want to get off of the "elitist coasts" are going to imagine going there. If it happens to call the cultural bluff on farming being some quaint, pastoral life of simple but rewarding hard work, that's hardly the tech worker's fault. The blame for that most likely lies with the people in power who stand to benefit from sustaining that fantasy — who are often among the same people who benefit from the fantasy that tech work is all pinball machines and free sodas for typing on computers.
LOL, if that's your coping mechanism. But while one might laugh at a worker wanting to jump from one bleak industry to another bleak industry, the people who profit from all of this bleakness go on profiting. If we have a problem with the fantasies, then maybe we should do something about the realities first.
My grandpa was a medium scale farmer for most of his life and when he retired he kept a couple dozen cows for milk and he paid every single month to keep it going. It was his hobby and he knew that, he said he'd need a couple hundred again to make it at least pay for itself.
It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.
Farm to Taber is a great listen on farming in general, eye opening for those that have had little to no contact to real world farming: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/farm-to-taber/id166958...