I brought it up primarily as an example of what is NOT relevant to systemd.
> But don't tell that to Poettering - because he is adamant that his solution is the only solution, and anyone who it doesn't suit is just playing with toys.
That's not what he said about PulseAudio. He specifically mentions the need for the other APIs and that the situation sucks. http://youtu.be/9UnEV9SPuw8
> That's literally how he referred to Debain's choice to not push systemd because it targets multiple kernels, which systemd does not work with. (Which btw, Arch does too - although perhaps not the same people.)
The advantages the Linux kernel provide (particularly, cgroups) is such a useful thing it would be stupid not to use it just because it doesn't exist everywhere. So either stick with your current init system, make a similar init system that is compatible with unit files (which are extremely simple), or add the necessary features to the BSD kernel. I'm not seeing a valid complaint here because systemd doesn't affect you unless you want it to.
>Arch was built with a different mentality - the one of personal freedom to do what the hell you want with your desktop, not for the benefit of some company. You are free to use or reject any software you don't want.
> Well, not any more. Pushing systemd on users breaks that mentality - because the choice is stripped from you. The choice is already there in Arch though - and has been for a while. If you want systemd, you can use it. If you don't want it, don't bother. Moving the other way is not really possible though - because if you build your system around systemd, you can't revert back (without taking the time to rewrite everything that depends on systemd.)
There is no "everything that depends on systemd" other than the init process itself. You say this choice is stripped from you, but what you want is to force the Arch developers to maintain init scripts. Take responsibility for it yourself - get together with other people who want those init scripts maintained and maintain them. You won't get things you want by just demanding that the world give it to you.
> The dependency problem in itself is a complaint against systemd. Should udev users be forced to use systemd for example? Normally we would introduce another layer of abstraction to our code - such that we can share common code between systemd-udev and non-systemd-udev, and have a solution where everyone wins - the systemd users benefit from improvements in systemd integration, whilst everyone benefits from improvements to udev which aren't systemd dependent. This is programming 101.
Where are these systemd-dependent parts of udev? They don't exist. There is no need for an abstraction layer to deal with the differences because there are no differences from a user perspective.
>What I am against though, is the politics of it. The constant pushing of systemd down everyone's throat like it's a fucking panacea.
Really, you're more political than anyone I've seen on the pro-systemd side of things.
>One day saying "don't use if if you don't want," and the next blogging "you're fucking idiots for not using it." (Lennart's approach to Ubuntu.)
I brought it up primarily as an example of what is NOT relevant to systemd.
> But don't tell that to Poettering - because he is adamant that his solution is the only solution, and anyone who it doesn't suit is just playing with toys.
That's not what he said about PulseAudio. He specifically mentions the need for the other APIs and that the situation sucks. http://youtu.be/9UnEV9SPuw8
> That's literally how he referred to Debain's choice to not push systemd because it targets multiple kernels, which systemd does not work with. (Which btw, Arch does too - although perhaps not the same people.)
The advantages the Linux kernel provide (particularly, cgroups) is such a useful thing it would be stupid not to use it just because it doesn't exist everywhere. So either stick with your current init system, make a similar init system that is compatible with unit files (which are extremely simple), or add the necessary features to the BSD kernel. I'm not seeing a valid complaint here because systemd doesn't affect you unless you want it to.
>Arch was built with a different mentality - the one of personal freedom to do what the hell you want with your desktop, not for the benefit of some company. You are free to use or reject any software you don't want.
> Well, not any more. Pushing systemd on users breaks that mentality - because the choice is stripped from you. The choice is already there in Arch though - and has been for a while. If you want systemd, you can use it. If you don't want it, don't bother. Moving the other way is not really possible though - because if you build your system around systemd, you can't revert back (without taking the time to rewrite everything that depends on systemd.)
There is no "everything that depends on systemd" other than the init process itself. You say this choice is stripped from you, but what you want is to force the Arch developers to maintain init scripts. Take responsibility for it yourself - get together with other people who want those init scripts maintained and maintain them. You won't get things you want by just demanding that the world give it to you.
> The dependency problem in itself is a complaint against systemd. Should udev users be forced to use systemd for example? Normally we would introduce another layer of abstraction to our code - such that we can share common code between systemd-udev and non-systemd-udev, and have a solution where everyone wins - the systemd users benefit from improvements in systemd integration, whilst everyone benefits from improvements to udev which aren't systemd dependent. This is programming 101.
Where are these systemd-dependent parts of udev? They don't exist. There is no need for an abstraction layer to deal with the differences because there are no differences from a user perspective.
>What I am against though, is the politics of it. The constant pushing of systemd down everyone's throat like it's a fucking panacea.
Really, you're more political than anyone I've seen on the pro-systemd side of things.
>One day saying "don't use if if you don't want," and the next blogging "you're fucking idiots for not using it." (Lennart's approach to Ubuntu.)
Are people not allowed to express an opinion?