Just another reminder that if you are in any way doing business in China, you are helping the despots who made disappear Cao Zhixin and all her fellow vigil attendees, violently overthrew Tibet, broke every international agreement on Hong Kong, and are this minute militarily threatening Taiwan.
It might cost more, but it is worthwhile to do business elsewhere.
> Just another reminder that if you are in any way doing business in China, you are helping the despots
That may be true, but don't forget that you're helping ordinary people like Cao Zhixin as well. When you're buying stuff made in China, only a small part of the money you pay is captured as taxes by the government; the rest goes to other people, improving their livelihoods.
Of course the same is true when you buy things made in other countries; it'll just be a different group reaping the benefits. So bettering people's lives is not a good reason to prefer products made in China, but it's also not a good reason to avoid them either.
It isn't about the flow of money, it is about the flow of power.
Even if some of your purchase winds up in the pockets of ordinary Chinese, it does nothing to help them get out from out from under autocratic rule.
That's the point — the Great Experiment failed. It would be fantastic to free the billion++ people of China, and we thought that open exchange would do it, but it only empowered their rulers and now threatens us. The best we can do is to strongly oppose that government and the society running under it (and yes, that this will end up benefiting others in other countries who are already overlooked, that is also a good thing).
I’m as anti-CCP and pro “buy local” as they come (or at least pretty far down the path)
But they’ve kind-of won… I just can’t feasibly avoid China with my pocketbook every single day.
I have no idea where to get a (usable) phone / computer that isn’t touching on them at some level. That company down the street that sells me a beer and a burger, well I guarantee they’ve got an add of Made in China.
They’ve sadly outplayed us (or our shit heel political and business elite) to the point of overly tight integration.
>>I have no idea where to get a (usable) phone / computer
Samsung is Korean, and does much of their production in Vietnam, none in China AFAICT. They have a pretty broad line from premium down to good enough value that I've seen my provider offering multiple models for free (as in beer) with the phone plan. You can certainly get an older/refurb premium model for cheap.
Yes, they have outplayed us so far, but that tide is changing fast. Obviously, the big govt & biz players must drive it, but we can do our part.
Yes, there's a billion civilians unwillingly living under CCP's despotism, but the best we can do for them now is to not do things that support that system.
The Great Experiment has utterly failed. The generous idea that open trade and exchange would bring open democratic systems turned out to be false, it only empowered the autocrats, who are now on the expansion warpath (see Ukraine and Straits of Taiwan, this minute).
Obviously we can't yet be absolutist about it, but just making the effort on everything we buy, try to shift it to a substitute from ANYWHERE else. If you can, great, and if not, next time there probably will be one.
Meh, Chinese labor is already more expensive than equivalent Mexican labor (at least from an American perspective). They're running on inertia at this point. Might take a decade or two to relocate the industrial plant, but it'll shift on cost alone given enough time.
America just moved their slavery elsewhere and got the CCP to administer it. Out of sight, out of mind, get me my iphone while the plebs desperately jump out 5th story factory windows.
Give us an alternative to our Chinese-made computers, smart phones, etc. that isn't "don't get them," because that's kind of absurd in the modern era. If you have an alternative I'm all ears.
You're destroying the world and exploiting communities every time you turn on a light switch or ride motorized transport. Every package you order online is part of the problem. Should I give you a high-minded lecture with no alternatives as well?
And in some regions of 18th century America there was no reasonable immediate alternative to survive without buying goods produced by negro slaves, so it would have been pointless to point out the situation.
I'm a bad guy too. happier? Maybe the world would be a better place with more high minded lectures now and again, so I'm all ears.
I don't mind being told I'm doing something bad but critique without a solution is pointless. It's easy to tear folks down, it's hard to build. You're taking the easy route while looking down on us as if you don't willingly participate in suffering for the same reasons we do. It's not morally permissible, but let's not pretend you're 1) any better or 2) proposing any meaningful solutions.
If you asked me the solution it starts with the most influenceable and likely allies, such as Uyghurs, who already have armed groups that have a chance of extracting at least one, two people from this kind of tyrannical relationship with the CCP. I don't think the picture starts with saving everyone exploited but rather just one, two persons at a time and let the witnesses decide how to proceed.
Currently they are a designated terrorist organization so if I gave you any actionable advice I would end up in jail. Perhaps the first step is an American may be to solicit these self defense organizations to be removed from the designated list so an American may even discuss what could be done without suffering a long prison sentence.
When I wanted ISIS gone I flew to Iraq and joined the YPG. I don't think any amount of not buying oil would have solved the problem.
It's fine if you want to box things into consumption, but don't ask for some kind of solution and just shit on it and think you're not a hypocrite for doing the exact thing you accuse me of, which is critiquing with no solution.
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments and breaking the site guidelines.
If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Your solution for our hypocritical use of smart phones/tech built by slave labor is for me to abandon my toddlers/wife/general responsibility, fly to China, and participate in armed insurrection.
If that’s isn’t trolling then the alternative is far more frightening.
No my suggestion was for you to solicit your reps to delist these groups frustrating tyrannical efforts of the CCP from the DTO lists, so that someone else without toddlers may have the option.
Unfortunately there is little to no real ethical consumption under the current economic systems of the world (at least in the developed world). E.g. my mere existence in the USA funds the actions of the federal government and military. It is not my intention to legitimize actions you speak against (I.e. “there are none without sin” is not an invitation to sin your heart out). I just want to remind everyone that even true statements and facts can nevertheless be used as propaganda (I.e. focus on the bad things our enemies our doing, not that we are doing). I have no doubt that on the Chinese equivalent of hacker news there are people saying that doing any business in the USA is helping the US imperial war machine that has violently over thrown many governments, disappears people into Guantanamo Bay, etc.
The opening wage gap since the 70s have pathed the way for this. Raising wages could have paid for free produced products, but the haves decided that freedom for the have-nots has a price point.
Are you joking? Do you mean "to its own citizens"? I just don't see how you can claim the US military has done less than 1% of the "bad stuff" the CCP does considering they haven't invaded dozens of countries like the US. Can you explain your comment?
All of this except Julian Assange, ethnic cleansing of Yemenis, Palestinians, threatened ICC, flattened Iraq & Libya, ongoing looting of Syria, etc. Barely scratching the surface.
There are no "good guys". The world is not divided into good vs. evil, as much as our Western worldviews are conditioned that way. There is zero moral difference between supporting businesses backed by Beijing or Washington.
There is a moral benefit to not being wildly xenophobic on the internet, however.
You really think there is zero difference between Beijing (or Moscow, or Tehran) v Washington?
Try going to live there and hold up a protest sign against whatever is the biggest anti-govt issue of the day. In any of the first three, you'll end up in jail for a fortnight to a decade, depending on the climate. In Washington, The worse you'll get is a "move along" if you are blocking traffic.
Or try being a neighboring country, like Taiwan. Right this minute, China is threatening it with its air force, navy, and army all harassing or doing target practice in it's direction. Hong Kong has lost ALL of the freedoms that were internationally agreed. All other neighbors are under varying degrees of threat & coercion. Meanwhile, Mexico, Caribbean islands, or Canada have trivial border checks and even Cuba have zero worries of any invasion.
The world really is divided between autocracy and democracy.
It may or may not be "good vs evil", but there is an absolutely critical difference. There are people who want to live a self-determined life free of coercion, and want a government determined by the people and not some tyrant. There are others who want to on a local level, be the bully and steal your lunch money, and on a geopolitical scale, rule and take everything.
This is a fight everywhere from the local level to be free, to the national level where abusers, bullies, crooks, and autocrats try to take over the reigns of democracy (and they recently succeeded in Hungary, Turkey), and internationally where the autocracies like China, Russia, Iran, NK, etc. are in expansionist.
Vladimir Lenin had a term for people who didn't understand the difference — "Useful Idiots". People who don't get it, and will happily do things helpful to their autocratic intentions, out of what they think are good intentions. You are in this territory, and should stop deluding yourself.
I am familiar with all of these pro-Washington talking points, yes. This sounds like a Biden stump speech.
The world is obviously not divided into "good" and "evil", or even the poorly-defined "democracy" and "autocracy". That is a childish belief, like believing in Santa. The United States has engaged in horrendous atrocities, consistently, since its founding, including the largest ethnic cleansing program in human history that later inspired the Holocaust.
Because the US already invaded Cuba and occupies Guantanamo Bay there, despite the Cuban government demanding the US leave for over 60 years (incidentally the US "renditions" and tortures Arabs in Guantanamo Bay in a manner that is against even US law).
>>the US already invaded Cuba and occupies Guantanamo Bay there
That should not make Cuba feel less worried, but more, but the fact is, that over six decades later, the US has done nothing of the sort. Meanwhile, just look at what China has done to Hong Kong and Taiwan in the last year. Or the cultural genocide of Tibet and the Uighers.
Again, while absolutely no country is perfect, if you are trying to equate the nations defending democracy vs autocratic countries, you are either deeply misinformed or are deliberately lying.
(and no, just because you can point out that what you said is an isolated fact does not mean you aren't lying, misleading is another form of lying, whether you are doing it intentionally or merely because you are deliberately or gullibly misinformed).
That is why I mentioned six decades later. That was one bad incident, was not a US military operation, it done by Cuban exiles (yes, launched from and partially financed by the US) and as I said, zero similar has been done in over six decades. Contrast with China just in the last year, and Russia in the last hour.
If you had a clue about actual history, you might know that the issue in the Cuban Missile Crisis, the blockade was NOT against Cuba, it was against Russian military gear, specifically nuclear missiles which could strike the entire East and Gulf coasts with near-zero warning. Kennedy announced the quarantine on October 22 and warned that U.S. forces would seize “offensive weapons and associated matériel” that Soviet vessels might attempt to deliver to Cuba. That is NOT an action against Cuba, but against the Soviets, who were using Cuba as a military base with it's permission.
Again, this attempt at false equivalence is nonsense.
You are either playing the role of a Useful Idiot, cluelessly spreading misleading arguments supporting authoritarian states, or are knowingly and willfully doing so. Which is it?
US soldiers are occupying Eastern Syria and facilitating the theft of oil and other resources to--among other places--northern Iraq, which the US also aggressively invaded much less than 60 years ago.
The situation is a hell of a lot more complex, and is certainly not driven by "theft of oil".
Yes, the US are in territory formerly ruled by the Syrian dictatorship. The US are:
1) opposing Russia (remember Syria is a client state of Russia, another autocracy, & Assad survived protests from his people only due to Russian intervention),
2) keeping a lid on ISIL resurgence, and
3) supporting the Kurds who have lived in that area for centuries and have been seeking to maintain self-determination, despite having been overrun by multiple dictators.
The IS destroyed most of the oil infrastructure when they were there. The US helped defeat them. To the extent that the US has helped rebuild the infrastructure, yes, the Kurds are benefiting, and yes, their territory also extends into northern Iraq. The Kurds have a better claim to any of these resources than either the dictatorial regimes of Assad/Putin, or of ISIL.
You think that we should simply withdraw and leave the Kurds to whichever of two murderous regimes, Assad/Russia or ISIL, can murder them and take the oil first? Or are you just taking cheap shots mischaracterizing the situation?
Even a casual glance at the situation shows that someone should be in there helping the Kurds, and keeping the lid on authoritarian regimes. I'd be happy if they can do it alone, or if someone else could help in our place.
But again, it is key to be better armed, prepared, and allied than authoritarians if democracy is to survive. The Kurds are key regional allies (and the US under Trump did screw the Kurds badly, in this area). Helping them is important to maintaining democracy.
It certainly is not as simple as your ill-informed pot-shot 'argument'.
What mental gymnastics! These are literally the same (well-founded) arguments of Moscow proponents. Observe:
Russia, in territory formerly ruined by the Kiev puppet regime, are
1) opposing Washington/NATO (remember Ukraine is a client state of Washington, another plutocracy, & Kiev survived protests from its people only due to American intervention),
2) keeping a lid on neo-Nazi/fascist resurgence, and
3) supporting the ethnic Russians who have lived in that area for centuries and have been seeking to maintain self-determination, despite having been overrun by multiple dictators.
It is absurd to pretend that Washington has any moral high ground over Russia.
The main difference between the two is that Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep. What business does Washington have arming the Kurds or Banderites, on the opposite side of the planet?
> There are no "good guys". The world is not divided into good vs. evil, as much as our Western worldviews are conditioned that way. There is zero moral difference between supporting businesses backed by Beijing or Washington.
One moral difference is that you can protest and public object to what Washington does and not disappear: it's possible to judge them against a moral standard which they profess to have, and note when they fall short. Try holding an anti-government/leader rally in Beijing.
There used to be an old Cold War joke: In both America and Russia we both have free speech. But you Americans have freedom after speech.
Yes there are. Harder to find in aggregates though. (And in complexities.)
And incidentally, I have seen that "good guys" argument used very recently to undermine the idea of "moral authorities", through the device of abstracting the set of actors as only including the institutional ones. But the Moral Authority is in individuals.
And no "flattening" (or "twoweightstwomeasures" shout) is an excuse for deeds.
> xenophobic
That was in reply to a poster that stressed the concept of "money is power and vote", and expressed no aversion of strangers as strangers.
If you're demanding an immediate, national economic decoupling on moral grounds, well that's just not a good idea for a whole host of reason. Would produce a lot more suffering than it would prevent.
Amazing to watch the trends skyrocket after 2018 when the media started turning against China.
I suppose it's possible that all of those people are deeply clued into the details of Xi's increasing authoritarianism, but it seems more likely that we're just thinking what we're told to think.
As long as the attitude remains "sticking it" to anyone, welcome to WWIII.
We saw what happened when we left Afghanistan. The Blob got so antsy they couldn't help themselves from instigating Russia and the war in Ukraine, not to mention all the coups in South and Central America over the past couple years.
Idle hands are the Devil's playthings. There are strong, institutional forces that inevitabilize (word?) conflicts profitable for military contractors. This is the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower was warning us about.
Yeah, you have that perfectly backwards. "Might is right" implies the most powerful entity has 'the right' to do what it wants on the basis of the ability to assert it. That it cannot be bound or constrained by rules / laws. And all other conflicts also reduce to "which entity is more powerful". So, by the time you go down the entity list from most to least powerful, there is no room for rule of law to bind any given actor.
You asserted three very distinct claims as equivalent, none of which included authoritarianism.
Authoritarianism is not "might is right". The authority at the top does not extend the 'right' of might to agents in the middle of the hierarchy. They are bound by the authority's will in their behavior towards their own power-inferiors.
It might cost more, but it is worthwhile to do business elsewhere.