Congratulations Scalapay! IMHO Italy has a significant startup advantages, thanks to plentiful infrastructure in the cities, a dynamic culture that combines creativity and processes, and a sizeable economy.
I recently visited Milan-Florence-Rome and these feel to me very much like the startup scene in San Francisco in the mid-1990s, ready to grow fast and big. I believe the missing ingredient is more VC startup ecosystem help, from incubators through Series A. If you're interested in this area, I'd love to connect because I see opportunities to grow the talent and money in Italy instead of having it leave for London & NYC.
Honestly our insane taxation is holding us back. My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make. The job market is perma-bearish and has been so since before I was even born.
Taxes are a problem but the work culture is also an issue. I tried to setup shop in Italy last year and it was... a mess. People not joining calls, broken English, a very concerning lack of trust in general from job candidates. I was offering market or higher than market wages. I ended up hiring more in our base in Krakow. It's getting harder to find people in Krakow but the work culture is on another level and English good across the board. Net IT salaries in Poland are more or less comparable to Italian ones, the overall cost difference is max ~20% for senior roles, so yeah taxes, but not enough to explain the "hold back" honestly.
The work ethic in Italy is … interesting. In my experience, they get their shit done when they say it will be done, not when you say it should be done. They enjoy time with family, and time away from work (when I say enjoy, I mean they will make time for it, even in the middle of an American defined work day). I’ve never had an issue with the Italians I’ve worked with and I’ve truly enjoyed spending time with them.
I think one issue is that market wages (or reasonably higher than market ones) for developers are so low that good talent will simply not be interested in your offer, especially if you are a small company (in which case you can at least play the "job security" card, which I think has a lot of weight here).
Setting up shop or working as a freelancer just pays so much better.
Well, that feels like a gross oversimplification. Other countries have tax brackets not too different from Italy's (eg. Germany), and Italy is not too high in the charts of cost of labour.
Economists would argue that it's a mixture of things: high taxes, low productivity, broken justice system, slow and intricate bureaucracy that does not really work, etc.
I bet that if Italy's economy would be based on high value-added industries (like France and Germany), less people would complain about high taxes.
sorry but I don't buy that much this argument anymore. I'm Italian living in Germany, I see exactly the same kind of issues that are holding back Italy economy (minus endemic organised crime) but still Germany has a far stronger economy.
You have high taxes, slow and intricate bureaucracy (it took more than 3 months to complete the house purchase process in Germany whereas in Italy is far faster), low productivity, tax evasion, etc etc but somewhat Germany works slightly better than Italy that generates far better results in the end.
I'm also an Italian living in Germany and I know what you mean. But I wasn't referring to the myth of Germany productivity, which is debatable.
The argument is not anecdotal, rather it is just based on the numbers (eg. GDP per hour worked, among others).
you're bot not mentioning irregular work and tax evasions. that and the fact that some regions produce a net positive in terms of per-capita gdp while other produce a net negative (a significant net negative).
I don’t know why you guys want to be America so bad. Nobody I personally know that has had the chance to move to the EU has ever returned. Roughly a sample size of 5, but you get the point.
Sample of one: can’t wait for my wife to be done with stuff here, so we can pack our stuff and go back in Europe.
I will leave a salary that I will never even remotely approach in France.
But quality of life… oh man quality of life.
Or education, I don’t want my kids to deal with education here.
When I sat down and did the math I realized moving from northern California to Ireland in 2013 has had a total opportunity cost of something like $1-$2 million, and that's conservative.
There are plenty of things to like about the EU but let's not kid ourselves, America is pretty nice if your goal is to be wealthy (and most people want that, even if they won't admit it).
The Americans the EU would be best for are, for the most part, the ones who can't get a visa.
Summary - if you're "meant" to be rich, i.e. you do what it takes, you'll probably be anywhere in the world. Is life in Europe more interesting, cultured, and sophisticated than living in nyc and vacationing in florida? probably.
It’s also not the general consensus I find by reading peoples experiences across various platforms online. I went to school for a year in Germany and greatly enjoyed it.
Of course I expect a different opinion from the top 3% income tech bro libertarian bent of the HN user base. But I haven’t seen a compelling reason here to think life for the average American is better than it is for someone in the EU.
You're right - for the average American it's worse. But average Americans can't move to the EU, for the most part.
For high earners the EU comes with a jaw-dropping price tag. The effective tax rate on a 200k income in Finland is over 50% for instance. In the US even the _marginal_ tax rate is nowhere near that.
I never looked at the actual rate but I just did my taxes here in the US.
And I was surprised to see that on average I pay almost a net month of salary. ( I pay 10k in 2021 so far, I will get a small return )
While in France, I was paying a month of my salary as well. ( roughly 3k / year )
Listening to French media, I thought I was moving to a tax heaven while going here.
Meh. I kinda pay the same thing.
Except I don’t get any benefit and half my salary needs to be stashed away to important, non négociable futur use. ( while that part is done for me in France automatically though socialized taxes )
I understand why you guy don’t like taxes thought : you really don’t get much back.
Actually, the marginal tax rate on $1M in California is over 50% (37 federal plus 13.3 state).
For 200k (euros), that's $250k or so which is 35% federal (single filer), 9.3% California for 44.3%. (Which I would argue isn't that far off).
It would probably be more useful to compare effective tax rates and what you get for them. In the US, Social Security applies to the first $147k now (so on $250k that's 3.6% effective), but you also get a small retirement income. In Finland, I assume people get services in exchange for those taxes that you might be paying for in the US (e.g., healthcare, childcare, education, and retirement income), so you can't just compare using "what are relative tax rates like?" as a question.
That’s the same as social security and Medicare “cotisations” except we just call them taxes. There’s also unemployment but I believe it’s by state and comes out of your states income tax, if they have one.
I find the difference between cotisations and taxes meaningful.
Specially in a context where one side of the political spectrum is constantly pushing to reduce the tax burden. Cotisations can be set aside in that discussion ( because, they are not taxes, you are guaranteed to see the money back in a specific and personal way )
Another difference is that French folks rely and plan to use the equivalent of Medicaid more.
Here; my understanding is that it’s a nice bonus.
( I might be wrong )
Very true - the other side to this is it's a _LOT_ harder to get to 200k+ in Europe than in California.
Anyway, I like the EU, but it still is a harder place to build wealth on the whole. Where I am you pay tax on _unrealized_ gains in ETF's (called deemed disposal), CGT is high (33%), and you get much less advantage saving for retirement than in the US.
On the other hand, if I lose my job, unemployment benefits more than cover our monthly expenses if we pare back a bit. Our overhead is low.
If it tells you anything I went back to California to start a company. Then, after someone drove a car in to my wife and the cop lied about her statement and she was lucky not to get a huge bill (it was the first few months of Obamacare before the horrific deductibles came in), AND she took her 1 week of vacation and that was it for the year, we decided to hell with that and moved back to the EU.
The maximum out of pocket expense for 2021 is $17k or so for a family, and even in CA, maximum premiums should be ~$25k per year for a family of 4, maybe closer to $30k if parents are age 55+.
At a million dollars of salary, that is not going to make a difference to anyone, especially because most of the $30k premiums will be paid by employer, so you are left spending $20k out of pocket maximum including your portion of the premiums.
I would just add $15k for a single person / $30k for a family to tax expenses to compare relative taxes for an employer person in US vs EU.
I was trying to give an idea of what horrific deductible would be. Probably less than $5k per year, and out of pocket maximum less than $10k even for a family. Healthcare expenses are not material to employees of tech companies…as long as they remain employees.
> My salary is embarassing, but it's not even the company's fault, I'm costing my company ~2.5x what I make.
That's not horrifically abnormal. A 2x multiplier on salary is considered standard in the US for the cost to an employer. If you make 20% less than a US counterpart, the company is breaking even.
I recently visited Milan-Florence-Rome and these feel to me very much like the startup scene in San Francisco in the mid-1990s, ready to grow fast and big. I believe the missing ingredient is more VC startup ecosystem help, from incubators through Series A. If you're interested in this area, I'd love to connect because I see opportunities to grow the talent and money in Italy instead of having it leave for London & NYC.