> Maybe it's because people spend too much time exchanging msgs in forums such as this, instead of having meaningfull exchanges with real people.
What does "meaningfull" mean? For example, I learn a lot more from fora such as Hacker News, so I'd argue that in-person interactions tend to be less meaningful.
Meaningful means more according to several hundred millennia of evolution as social animals that need actual proximity.
It means the person on the other end of the conversation will come to your house and help you when you're sad, desperate, sick, and not just be some alias in some other city/country who'll forget all about you just after you've stopped chatting (or give total priority to his real world friends and family).
It means common shared friendship building experiences - not just the sharing, via talk, of experiences each had in isolation in a totally different place, in another context.
It means having you back and you having theirs, which is rarely if ever the case from people in forums.
>the person on the other end of the conversation will come to your house and help you when you're sad, desperate, sick
People really have to grow out of this. This is what in my understanding learning being alone exactly is about. Once you are sad, desperate, sick you have to come out of it as quick as possible with what is available to you. It is your responsibility before yourself and the world, like taking shower or brushing your teeth.
I say to grow out - because as children most of us learned the trick to pretend sad to get attention and it developed into all sorts of manipulations. When you don't get what you want, for whatever reasons - that is just it, to become sad or joyful is your reaction, it just shows your level of maturity in this world. Children would cry to get attention, grown-ups would keep going.
But you can cry for attention only if there are people around you. If you stay alone you will quickly realize all bullshit you are creating and stop it, because anyway it has no effect. In this way being alone is a powerful way to bring one down to reality.
And parents use it sometimes when they feel kids are crying to manipulate - they ignore it all-together.
This is relevant to I would say 90% of mental issues, of course in case of physical sickness you need to see a doctor, not someone to calm you down, but someone to fix your body.
Actually, they should grow to the opposite direction. They're not "rebellious teenagers" who "don't need nobody". And delivery food + home alone, with "relations" mainly on the web is not a lifestyle.
And how people end up discovered dead in their apartment for weeks, with nobody caring earlier, and their pets having chewed on them...
>Once you are sad, desperate, sick you have to come out of it as quick as possible with what is available to you. It is your responsibility before yourself and the world, like taking shower or brushing your teeth.
If you mean people should stop abusing others when they don't need help, sure.
If you mean it as stated above, that's as far removed from humanity as possible. Some loner animals, sure, they might do this. We built society and civilisation to do better than that.
The idea that having someone help you when you are "sad, desperate, sick" is something people "really have to grow out of".
The rest is like a naive self-help book, heal yourself style. Yes, some people play sad to manipulate others. But it's not like everybody is like some unique snowflake who can't get what they want and use that trick.
No, there are tons of actual sadness, sickness, depression (situational and pathological), need, etc out there, and there's nothing wrong in asking or giving help in such cases, in fact, it's what makes us human (or at least social animals, since other social animals will help their own too).
People needed help, asked for it, and (sometimes) got it, from friends, community, etc, even back when they survived horrible threats, witnessed (or even fought) in 2-3 wars each, and had self-reliance skills up the wazoo. It's not just the case with unique snowflakes who can't get what they want and throw a tantrum, as implied ("I say to grow out - because as children most of us learned the trick to pretend sad to get attention and it developed into all sorts of manipulations. When you don't get what you want, for whatever reasons - that is just it, to become sad or joyful is your reaction, it just shows your level of maturity in this world.")
Let's put it this way:
I agree that many people should learn to appreciate being alone, do things for themselves, not bother others for minor stuff and cry wolf, and depend on others for their whims, grow up and mature in this regard, etc.
But that's not all the people, all the time. All the people includes totally mature and otherwise self-reliant people, who do need help, assistance, empathy, etc. That's part of being human, not a sole trait of being a parasite to others.
Heck, even marines ask for help, depend on each others, and even share their feelings and help cheer up the other - and without those things they'd be far less effective.
>No, there are tons of actual sadness, sickness, depression (situational and pathological), need, etc out there
Ok tell me where is this all sadness and depression originated from? Is "my life does not go the way I want it to go" not the only reason for it? Can you name any other reason?
>People needed help, asked for it
I'm not saying you should not ask for help, nothing wrong with it. What I am talking about is at least genuinely try to see if you can handle it by yourself. Not through rejection or denial, but actually introspecting into why am I in this state? what happened? what did I expect? why it did not happen the way I expected? why do I give this so much importance? and so on. It won't happen in 5 minutes, even "naive self-help" needs to be learned and exercised to start working.
See how you learned to walk, you fall down so many times but kept trying, your parents helped you, they hold your arms and so on. But you genuinely kept trying until it worked one day. If you would not genuinely try and force parents to carry you around you wouldn't be able to walk today. Now people in their 30es are still not even trying to learn how to handle basic emotions and forcing others to help, when are they going to start? This is what I mean by growing up.
One more thing about asking help - one must see that's it in a way a trap because one day help might not come. In this sense it is better to learn to do what is most important by yourself. And I see my own thoughts and feelings as extremely important aspect of my life. Maybe I can not handle cooking or riding a car but I make sure I can handle the way I feel.
>Ok tell me where is this all sadness and depression originated from? Is "my life does not go the way I want it to go" not the only reason for it? Can you name any other reason?
That's so broad a reason to cover everything. Since any kind of "need help" situation would be automatically also a "my life does not go the way I want it to go" situation, no matter how legitimate it is.
But a phrase like "my life does not go the way I want it to go" makes it sound like people would ever need help, feel depressed etc for frivolous reasons -- like "my life does not go the way I want it to go, I wanted to be rock star and I'm not", or "my life does not go the way I want it to go, I want to sit at home, play videograms, and not have to work", or "my life does not go the way I want it to go, I want all the women to want me" etc.
There's also unemployment, disease (including cancer), loss of somebody, accident, and all kinds of other things people need help to get over.
Can some get over them by themselves alone? Sure. But having to do, and considering asking for help a weakness, makes for a worse society, of selfish distrustful loners, with no compassion for others, no solidarity, and ultimately, just a bunch of individuals, not a community or a society.
Does that mean that people should also try all their best to help themselves (and not just expect all the help from others)? Of course.
First, sadness is normal human emotion and not just attempt to manipulate others to get attention. The feeling of sadness is not childish or immature.
Second, isolation does not make people more resistant to anything. Isolated people are more depressed, more passive rather then trying to change things and have more mental health problems. More likely to develop problem with alcohol or drugs.
That holds true for stay at home moms who have to often deal with long term isolation. It holds truth in extreme cases, such as in isolation in prison, where people go crazy.
>sadness is normal human emotion and not just attempt to manipulate others to get attention
It is a human emotion, I never said it is not human or not normal. What I am saying is you are the one who creates emotions. Growing up means to realize it and to get charge of it instead of being reactive as children do.
>Second, isolation does not make people more resistant to anything
I am not talking about resistance or isolation, I am talking about paying attention to how your emotions and thoughts work, the less external noise you have the better you can do it. The more you pay attention - the better you understand it, the better you understand it the better you can handle it. Not resilience, but learning the way one learns to handle legs and walk or to handle hands and write. That's that simple.
>Isolated people are more depressed, more passive rather then trying to change things and have more mental health problems
That is exactly about learning how to be alone, it's like if one is accidentally got into deep water they can drown but if you do it slowly, consciously, you become more and more comfortable, stop worrying and start enjoying it. It can also be done with support, like they do in retreats and some monasteries.
Unfortunately in western culture this was not understood and denied on many levels, and I see how that links to current epidemic of loneliness.
Literally all adults I know react to their emotions. Including those who hide them, they are still reactive to own emotions.
> That is exactly about learning how to be alone, it's like if one is accidentally got into deep water they can drown but if you do it slowly, consciously, you become more and more comfortable, stop worrying and start enjoying it.
That is not how long term isolation work. Yes, your social skills will go down and you will start avoiding people - it will be too tiring to talk to them. That is not the same as being happy isolated tho. That is more of being unhappy no matter what.
> Unfortunately in western culture this was not understood and denied on many levels, and I see how that links to current epidemic of loneliness.
It is quite common situation of temporary stay at home moms. Few years in mostly isolation. That is not exactly lost or unusual situation at all.
> It can also be done with support, like they do in retreats and some monasteries.
There is way more in being nun then just isolation. There is also complete control over pretty much everything you do, who you talk with and what emotions you show. Obeissance and routine.
>Literally all adults I know react to their emotions
If they can react consciously I'd expect them not to get into sadness or depression like at all.
>There is way more in being nun then just isolation
I'm not talking about extreme isolation, more like buddhist places where you can stay for a week or month without talking and not knowing other people and just face how it is to be alone. Not isolated alone, but "socially" alone and all arrangements are made so you don't worry about stuff like food and can fully go into it.
> and all arrangements are made so you don't worry about stuff like food and can fully go into it
Then you have help of people who do arrangements and even complete dependence on them. If you get sick, they will take you to doctor. If you will have mental breakdown, they will take you out.
Being alone as in without "help you when you're sad, desperate, sick" means that if you are sick, you go to store and you cook and you have to pick up kids from school no matter how bad it feels. It means that if your close one dies or you loose job, you are still alone and with no one to talk with.
> where you can stay for a week or month without talking and not knowing other people and just face how it is to be alone
That will not teach you to be alone. Week or month of being alone is like ... nothing. It is comfortable holidays, everything is arranged so that no external event have even possibility to influence you. Even if you lost job during this time, you would not know.
> If they can react consciously I'd expect them not to get into sadness or depression like at all.
Oh they do. And they do go to anger too. And to frustration.
>If you get sick, they will take you to doctor. If you will have mental breakdown, they will take you out.
They will take you to the doctor but no mental help as this is exactly what you have to learn to handle there.
>Being alone as in without "help you when you're sad, desperate, sick" means that if you are sick, you go to store and you cook and you have to pick up kids from school no matter how bad it feels. It means that if your close one dies or you loose job, you are still alone and with no one to talk with.
So if this happens and you haven't found how to handle loneliness it will be much more devastating than if you have had some similar experience before. I am talking about doing it in a "safe" but still real atmosphere which will develop certain qualities. Of course, real-life staff will be different, but it's better to have some idea of how it is.
>That will not teach you to be alone. Week or month of being alone is like ... nothing. It is comfortable holidays, everything is arranged
This depends on you if month is a holiday for you - go for 1 year. If you don't like comfort - there are places where you have to cook, you have to clean, wash and so on.
>Oh they do. And they do go to anger too. And to frustration.
To me, this means they don't know how to manage their emotions. I don't know what you mean when you say "they all can".
>Literally all adults I know react to their emotions
>> If they can react consciously I'd expect them not to get into sadness or depression like at all.
This feels backwards. Sometimes depression is the correct response to what is happening in the world. Just because you are conscious of what is transpiring within really isn't going to stop true depression.
What do you say to someone who recently lost a loved one in a brutal senseless manner? Oh, you should just like react consciously and not be sad...
>Sometimes depression is the correct response to what is happening in the world. Just because you are conscious of what is transpiring within really isn't going to stop true depression.
The response is what you choose. If you choose depression - ok, that's your choice. But don't call it correct and don't force other people to feel bad when they choose another response.
>What do you say to someone who recently lost a loved one in a brutal senseless manner?
If it was very recent I would say some supportive things. But otherwise, I would show them that life still goes on, because the only way to end suffering is to accept the reality whichever way it is.
>Why not? Why is depression not a correct response?
Because there is no correct response or every response is correct. All your responses are trained by society where you grew up, it is clearly visible if you visit other cultures where people don't create much drama about death and accept it as a natural process, even celebrate.
>I don't think you know much about depression or psychology
You may think anything you want, that's not a problem.
That's nonsensical. Every response is not correct. When there is a tragedy if you go around with a big grin on your face and laugh about it, people will instantly view you as a maniac, as they should.
Of course perspective and personal choice plays into your reactions, but for a tragic event depression is the normal and correct response. To say otherwise is just ill-informed and foolish. You can look at this as existential or stoically as you want, it doesn't change the facts of human psychology.
And death is just one example of something that COULD be tragic. If some culture celebrates death that's fine, maybe it's the rain they view as tragic, and in that case they would be depressed when it rains, and that would be the normal response to their "tragedy". People don't celebrate things that depress them by definition, although what that thing is may be different events across cultures. Death is a good example because almost all cultures do not celebrate it, they are saddened and mourn. How about when that tribe that celebrates death is attacked by their neighbours, do they still celebrate the death of their loved ones in the same way? I doubt it, because that's a tragic event not just a natural part of life. Which was my original example. before you twisted it into something very different. I said a loved one brutally and tragically killed. There's no culture that would celebrate that, and to be saddened and depressed is absolutely the correct response. Can people really choose to not be affected by something like that? It sounds patronizing to think that is something you can just will away and also unhealthy. Grieving, depression, sadness can all be healthy and normal. Sometimes it is the correct response to what is happening in the world, which is what I said in my first post.
>I doubt it, because that's a tragic event not just a natural part of life
How do you really know what is natural and what is unnatural part of life? In nature creatures also die in quite tragic ways, even from their own loved ones. Is that not natural?
Tragedy can only be when you see a limited picture. In a limitless landscape of existence everything goes perfectly, ultimately there are no mistakes. Things lead to other things which we are not aware, that's all. Maybe somebody's "tragic death" saved hundreds of lives? How could you possibly know?
Again, it does not mean there is no such thing as grief or sadness and it's perfectly fine to experience it. But it's important to be able to see beyond it too.
I see your confusion, maybe it's not a great idea to go into such things over the internet.
You are a fragile fucking snowflake, and after losing an argument you make a desparate assertion that I'm confused. You're not making coherent arguments get real, you're going on about "nature" for god knows what reason, I'm exhausted just thinking about how disconnected your thoughts are and to actually try and respond would be silly. You sound like you live in a bubble and don't know how to have an adult conversation. And your "ideas" on the subject were just shown to be hollow and wrong, so you have impolitely recused yourself from the conversation. What a child.
Think it’s more likely that it’s normal and healthy for social animals to seek each other in times of stress. This casting of social survival behaviour (including seeking attention, which social animals need from each other their whole lives to feel happy and secure) as “manipulative” and “immature” “bullshit” seems very odd to me. Sounds like a coping mechanism for your expressions of emotion having, as you say, no effect on people around you. No one cares. So you play all the roles yourself - you comfort yourself, you be your own support network. That doesn’t sound like a normal or good situation though.
What does "meaningfull" mean? For example, I learn a lot more from fora such as Hacker News, so I'd argue that in-person interactions tend to be less meaningful.