Not caring about sexual harassment is like not caring about racism, homophobia and similar human rights violations. So not sure if that's the kind of person you want to be.
Yours is an interesting comment because of its paradoxical nature. You seem to be implying that you yourself "don't care", but then say that those that don't care don't comment, and yet here you are commenting, which would imply that you do indeed care. But then, you only care enough to say you don't care, and that there are "many more" people like you. But I don't see anyone else saying "hey, we don't care" on this thread, which leads me to believe that there actually aren't more people like you. My brain is caught in a loop!
I'll help solve the paradox. "Don't care" can refer to at least 3 things:
1. don't care that there is sexual harassment at Uber
2. don't care about sexual harassment like that occurred at Uber
3. don't care that other people think most people care
My comment is about those that check off all 3. They are the majority, and they don't comment.
For me, I only check off #1 and #2, hence the comment.
I think part of the response you're getting is that "I don't care" is still vague.
It could mean you don't find it interesting or relevant to your life. Or it could mean you don't think sexual harassment is morally wrong. Or something else.
For example, I could say that I "don't care" about cholera deaths in Africa. I think it's a tragedy and hope the situation improves, but I'm not seeking out news about it or basing life-decisions around it. I "care" but I don't really care... at least not to the point that it changes my behavior.
Then again, I'm not jumping into discussions on cholera stories to tell people how much I don't care about cholera deaths. So, it feels like you're trying to make some big statement, e.g. taking a stand against "political correctness" or claiming sexual harassment isn't morally wrong.
Yes, I did go back and clarify my comment a bit already
Sexually harassment can definitely be morally wrong. But I'm not particularly outraged, mad, or upset by the sexual harassment scenario that happened at Uber, specifically. I don't think all sexual harassment should be lumped together, and doing so can lead to witch hunts.
Gotcha. I don't agree 100% with this clarified position (I think), but it seems like a rational position that we could debate. Not here of course. :) But you know, over drinks or whatevs.
Anyway, the point is that it's a much less outlandish statement than how I interpreted your original comment.
That's an interesting question. I think there are pretty big bubbles that have formed in terms of ideology -- that clouds perception of the greater country/world/etc. For whatever reason, that annoys me. I don't really know why.
Other subjects, generally, don't have an ideological bubble around them.
Another user on this thread is saying I will get banned for my comment, which is a good illustration of how the problem is exacerbating.
There is a bubble of people who claim that harassment don't happen and the negative reaction to it is always unfair.
Then there is bubble of people who claim that serious harassment is all the time around to almist all women and most companies and non victims (e.g. males) don't care.
Which of these bubbles were you trying to prove wrong?
HN generally welcomes people with a wide set of beliefs and values. I don't think someone would be banned just because they say they don't care about something. Of course I could still be proven wrong.
I'm guessing he was referring to the loss of internet points for posting an opinion out of the mainstream on a topic like this, where even the normally open minded and discussion oriented HN folks expect you to toe the party line.
I really don't care, but I'll further convolute your logic by commenting. In my anecdotal experience, there are many people that do not care about these controversies. They care more more about whether Uber is solving their transportation problem.
We don't know their priorities so we can't really judge that.
I am sure there are many things that you don't care about that others would think you should, but it doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. The world isn't black and white.
Apply this logic to any other crime and you'll see it's nonsensical.
"If no one cared about extrajudicial gangs roving the streets murdering people, the problem would be solved. After all, I wasn't murdered. That's simple logic right there"
You're right though. If no one cared about extrajudicial gangs roving the streets murdering people, then it wouldn't be a problem! I know it sounds crazy. But the argument is sound.
Let's put it this way. If everyone enjoyed extrajudicial gangs roving the streets murdering people, then it would be the opposite of a problem, wouldn't it? It would be a good thing.
A necessary requirement for a problem to be a problem is that we have to care about it, or at least the effects of it.
That's a great question! I can't speak for everyone, but personally I don't think asking another adult if they want to have sex with you is morally wrong, even in the workplace.
I think Americans are way too sensitive when it comes to sexuality. They repress it way too much.
For reference, here is the accusation from the blog post:
On my first official day rotating on the team, my new manager sent me a string of messages over company chat. He was in an open relationship, he said, and his girlfriend was having an easy time finding new partners but he wasn't. He was trying to stay out of trouble at work, he said, but he couldn't help getting in trouble, because he was looking for women to have sex with. It was clear that he was trying to get me to have sex with him, and it was so clearly out of line that I immediately took screenshots of these chat messages and reported him to HR.
So you don't believe a superior (her manager) was wrong to insinuate a question of whether she would participate in his sexual life?
What if she didn't complain to HR, rebuffed his advances, and he subsequently decided to demote her position, or cut her pay, or even just move her desk out of an office and into a cubicle?
Would it be alright then?
Bringing sexual advances of any kind within a situation where there is a power difference (ie, manager vs lower-level employee) is a recipe for disaster within a company. Ideally, it has nothing to do with being too sensitive about things sexual. While I'll agree with you that, in many cases, American views and such on sexuality are messed up, in this case it is pretty clear why this kind of thing isn't tolerated.
Between individuals on the same "level" within a company is one thing (but still frowned upon and should generally be avoided); provided the advance is innocuous enough (ie - asking for a date, for instance), and it isn't repeated if rebuffed - and the individuals aren't in any power difference (C-level to management, management to lower-level employee, etc) - then it may be permissible.
But even here - if I was an owner of a company - I would want this to be verboten, for the simple reason that should the advance be rebuffed (or worse, things go great - then something happens and things fall apart) - it can lead to strife between employees (at a minimum, the two involved, but it could easily lead to "side taking") - which can harm productivity, cohesiveness, and ultimately the image of the company should it become public knowledge.
Alright or not is relative and always depends on the context.
If I'm the manager and by doing that there is possibility that I could get sex with minimal downside then its alright.
If I'm the woman and him doing that make me uncomfortable then its not alright but if I do like the guy or maybe I can use it to advance my position in the company then its alright.
While I don't think a manager should be allowed to proposition reports for sex, you hint at another problem that is almost never discussed (unlike harassment which is very often talked about):
Women (mostly) who have relationships with superiors in order to advance their careers. Or women who have relationships with superiors because they are attracted to them (often because they are attracted to power/authority/resources) and as a side effect advance their careers.
This is unfair and demoralizing to other employees, gets the wrong people promoted and consequently damages the organization. Yet it seems like this is hardly ever mentioned as a problem.
Perhaps this is more of an issue in Europe where I'm based, while the US tends to be more strict even in this regard?
Harassment encompasses a wide range of behaviors besides "asking another adult if they want to have sex with you," from _continuing to ask someone after they've turned you down_, to inappropriate touching, to quid-pro-quo, where career advancement, or good work assignments, are tied to sexual favors. These offers don't need to be explicit.
It's difficult to do your best work when you don't feel safe in the workplace. It's also difficult to advance your career when your boss is demanding sexual favors in exchange for promotions or favorable work assignments. Fundamentally these are unfair to the people being harassed, which is why laws and workplace norms exist to discourage them. They also expose the company to a large amount of legal liability.
I'd suggest listening to people who have had to deal with this issue in the past, or paying better attention during harassment training the next time you are asked to do it at your workplace.
But none of those other behaviors happened at Uber. It was literally someone asking another adult if they want to have sex. How childish are we to get upset over this?
I can understand that feeling uncomfortable is not good. Lots of things make lots of people uncomfortable. Maybe the issue is that Americans become uncomfortable too easily? Or do not know how to handle feeling uncomfortable?
> But none of those other behaviors happened at Uber
That's false; of course they did. She was told by HR that after her manager propositioned her, she had to switch to another team, or likely suffer a poor performance review.
In another conversation with HR she was told that CA is an at-will employment state and she was on thin ice for reporting her manager to HR.
In other words she was punished for declining a proposition.
It wasn't just another adult, it was her direct manager. The person she depends on for her livelihood was propositioning her over the company chat software. There is rarely a good outcome in these situations, and in the BEST case it changes the employee/manager relationship drastically.
If someone propositions me at a bar, I can roll my eyes and walk away. If a friend propositions me, I can say "no" and decide whether or not I want to continue being friends with them. If my manager propositions me, I'm put in a -- not just an "uncomfortable" position -- but a really bad one that might seriously impact my life and my family's life.
About a year ago I momentarily misinterpreted a conversation over company chat with my new manager and thought he was about to sexually proposition me -- similar to what Fowler experienced. I don't want to give too many details, but it turned out to be _entirely_ harmless, there was just a cultural divide and he had a poor choice of words and the rest of the conversational context was unfortunate, but I pretty quickly figured out what he was talking about without him being any the wiser. But in that one second, it was like my entire world stopped. Like, heart pounding, vision narrowing, stomach dropped.
I'm a 28 year old woman, I've been propositioned plenty of times before (from "graphic drunk bar type stuff" to "politely asked on a date by a co-worker in another department" -- not a big deal in either case), but it's never caused such an immediate physical reaction like that. My mind just started racing, trying desperately to figure out how to handle it, staring at the screen in a literal physical cold sweat, and coming up with nothing good.
I was new in the company and I needed my manager's approval to succeed. He sits right across from me. I had just gotten married two weeks before, just gotten back from my honeymoon, my savings are depleted and I can't pay my mortgage without my job. My husband can't support both of us. I barely know my manager -- what would he do if I said "no"? If someone's capable of overstepping a huge boundary like this -- sexually propositioning a new employee they're managing -- what else are they capable of? Is this what I'd have to deal with for the rest of my time at the company? How do I stop it? Can I stop it? There are no female co-workers in the office -- there's no one to talk to for help.
I'm very glad (understatement) that this turned out to not be the case, and my momentary panic was just the result of a misunderstanding, but it really gave me insight into the problem that cases of sexual harassment like this can cause. This is NOT just "one adult asking another adult if they want to have sex." I've been asked for sex before -- even by relative strangers. I've asked other people for sex before. Heck, in my younger, single, wild days, I've consented to sex with relative strangers! I've gone on to have good friendships with people I've turned down sex from. I'll even admit to fantasizing about the odd boss or co-worker over the years, sure, but I keep it in my head. But actually being propositioned by a manager, in real life, on a Tuesday morning at your desk, in the real world with real world implications? It was absolutely terrifying for reasons that have nothing to do with sex.
I have at least some sympathy with the point you're trying to make here. I think you are essentially saying that we've all gone a bit soft, and that the modern workplace is full of a bunch of crybabies that can't solve any problem on their own without escalating it to HR. And this problem becomes particularly egregious when that escalation turns into a dark mark on that person's "permanent record", as it tends to do in modern society when we're talking about allegations of sexual harassment. Can't we all just be grown-ups and deal with our problems with ease and panache, rather than being sanctimonious little tattletales?
I get this argument, but I would posit to you that perhaps the modern take on sexual harassment IS society growing up. Consider changing your mindset - imagine that a new hire is just bad at working with people. They don't consider other people's ideas, or they're just generally rude - whatever it is. Just generally hard to work with. Now try to think about somebody who makes inappropriate propositions to women in the workplace: this is just another brand of the same problem. If you can't get along with some of your fellow female coworkers because they don't feel comfortable with you, then you're not a good team player.
In other words, instead of thinking about society as having gone soft, think about it like we go hard. We demand excellent people-skills in the workplace. If you can't take the heat, and other people feel annoyed, offended, and yes harassed working with you, then you're going to have trouble keeping work. Tough titties. Working at Uber requires excellent technical skills - why not social skills too?
Anyway, I would put it to you that if you don't find this compelling, you might be giving too much primacy to the sensibilities of poorly socialized men. If you find yourself asking "why should these poor saps have to suffer just because they can't talk to girls?" then that's a sign you have a blindspot. Food for thought.
> They don't consider other people's ideas, or they're just generally rude - whatever it is. Just generally hard to work with. Now try to think about somebody who makes inappropriate propositions to women in the workplace: this is just another brand of the same problem. If you can't get along with some of your fellow female coworkers because they don't feel comfortable with you, then you're not a good team player.
I disagree with the idea that we should bully, and ostracize people from society for making mistakes or simply not being able to interact socially with others as well as we all want.
That doesn't fix anything it only makes things worse.
We should be focusing on teaching, and embracing that people make mistakes and working on fixing those issues, if someone refuses to acknowledge that when it is seriously risking the safety of those around them, that is when it becomes a problem that should be handled with grace.
I am heavily against this group ostracizing, demeaning, and bullying tactic. It is getting disgusting, you can see it constantly on twitter, and it is starting to float onto hacker news.
But to play devil's advocate, replace "for simply not being able to interact socially with others" with "for simply not being able to adhere to a schedule" or "for simply not being able to keep up personal hygiene" or "for simply not being able to understand their boss's tasking". There are a million social standards to which we hold the average employee, and they all add up to an effective coworker.
In a world with men and women in the same workspace, being able to interact comfortably with the opposite sex is not just a life skill. It's part of your job description. So I'm not offended by companies that demand high "performance" in this regard.
With all that said, I 100% agree that the increasing frequency of "trial by twitter mob" is an unacceptable development. If somebody got fired for poor job performance, you wouldn't raise a twitter storm shaming that company for having made a poor hiring decision, nor would you plaster that person's mugshot everywhere to warn others of making the same mistake. You would just say "sorry, it's not working out" and send them on their way. So in that regard I think we are actually in complete agreement - making a mistake shouldn't make you a pariah. But I'm fine if it makes you fired.
Of course, most that don't care don't comment. So the comment section is not a good view of public opinion. Just the vocal minority.