Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society.
Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.
> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency
Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of.
Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.
Yes. The US doesn’t require language fluency for green cards. You can even bring your own interpret to the interview.
United States issues the highest absolute number of permanent residency permits in the world. It grants approximately 1 to 1.4 million lawful permanent resident (LPR) cards (Green Cards) annually
The US is an exception, doesn't require language proficiency for almost anything, and doesn't have an official language. This is very controversial in the US, and always has been.
Historically, this can originally be blamed on the desire of the US to import as many European immigrants as quickly as it could after the slaves were freed (post-"1877 Compromise"), because ex-slave votes were changing the composition of government. In 1910, only 60% of white Americans were native born (as opposed to about 98.5% of black Americans.) This period is also referred to as the "nadir of American race relations."
Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).
Germany treats permanent residency much more like a "citizenship lite", e.g., if you are a permanent resident[1] any newborn children will automatically be German citizens (even though Germany has no jus soli).
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Footnotes:
[1]: As long as at least one parent is a permanent resident and has in Germany for at least 5 years (the same duration that's usually required to become a permanent resident anyway)
> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language
This statement is clearly false, off the top of my head only USA and Spain come to mind. There are some countries like Japan where there it isn't a hard requirement, but you'd need a very good reason to justify why
Correct. Seems like various people are confusing the two. The issue of granting PR, is often about an additional tax and labor source for the government of that country.
For example: 1) Low birth rates and high ageing population percentage, this can be offset with immigration. Then PR status can be granted, as a kind of carrot and better tax revenue generation "filter". 2) Labor market manipulation and facilitating international business, where immigration is used to fill holes in various industries.
Why a country would want to grant PR, usually has different purposes from citizenship. There is overlap, but they aren't the same.
Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...
Permanent residency is a deal (not necessarily business related) between two entities: an individual and a state. It has everything to do with whatever requirements that the two parties have, and if there is no agreement on them there is no deal. In this case the state cares about language proficiency and requires it for a deal, so if you are not proficient in German there is no deal.
I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state.
Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.
You can be a net positive one day, next day you lose your job and are not. On the other hand, permanent is supposed to be without end. An unemployed worker with no language skills in the local language quickly becomes a burden
Residency while employed is rational. If you want to stay longer, learn the language
One would say, unemployed with a good local language skills will be able to easier navigate bureaucracy and claim more benefits - more loss for the state :)
There are implications by linguistics.
If you learn a language you also passively obtain insight into cultural norms and expectations.
Moreover, Learning a language is much easier if you're friends with natives and converse with them on a semi-regular basis.
Being able to speak the language also means that there doesn't need to be a separate support structure for you, as you will be able to use the ones provided to everyone else.
I'd wager the sum of these things is something one may expect from a permanent resident (i.e.: cultural knowledge, some amount of integration, ability to function without specialized support structures). And it turns out, that language proficiency is a pretty good proxy for measuring that.
Just because you don't accept the rationale behind the requirement it does not mean that there is none.
The requirements are not there to verify that you can live somewhere permanently, but if you _may_ live there permanently. Money is not the only dimension your so called "net positive" may be measured in.
> FWIW: I personally politically support PRs being given the political right to be voted into office as well.
Why? I'd go the other way and only allow political office for natural citizens. After all why would you welcome someone into your country when their goal is to change it - then maybe they would fit better into another country that already works like they want.
Because if the will of the people is for person A to serve in office X, then the will of the people should be absolute. I'd even allow election of minors and other currently non-eligible persons.
The only requirement should be that you are politically member of the given area, which typically means you actually physically live in the city/state/country.
Note, in Switzerland, you can already be voted into office _against your will_. And then you MUST serve. And this has actually happened in recent past, in remote villages to be fair.
Are (native) citizens a net positive? Do you ask each one of them how they contribute culturally? What does "spiritually" and "emotionally" even mean in this context?
People should be afforded basic rights because they are people. People who live long term in a place, do the same (or different for that matter but analogous) work etc should have the same basic rights. In this context I interpret "net positive" as basically fulfilling jobs/roles in the society. This alone should (in the long term) afford basic rights, not cultural and other tests.
edit: Regardless that, cultural contribution does not really require a specific language. You can paint, you can play music from your own culture/home country etc. You can even write things in english anyway that many will understand.
First of all, _basic_ rights should be afforded to _all_ humans. That's not what the discussion here is. The discussion here are non-basic rights, like the right to enter a geographic area without restriction or the right to state welfare.
You saying "job/role" is where the argument falls apart, because job and role are not the same. Yes, I absolutely agree that people who fulfill roles in society should be afforded protection of that society.
There are roles in society that have nothing to do with your job: neighbor, volunteer, person you ask for direction on the street, parent, parent of your child's friend... Those are also the roles that typically have some form of emotional, spiritual and cultural work associated with them.
Refusing to fill those roles and filling only the role of "high-income immigrant" isn't necessarily a net positive to the society and should not on that fact alone be provided permanent residence.
I will say however, I think parents of children that attend public school in a country should have almost automatic PR. Not fully automatic, but 99.99% of such cases are net positive, much more than high-income immigrants.
> the right to enter a geographic area without restriction
No, the discussion was about the conditions of staying, not entering.
> the right to state welfare
If one pays the same taxes for several years why shouldn't they have access to the same state welfare?
> Refusing to fill those roles
Even assuming it is meaningful to set rules about stuff like that that are basic life stuff and most people do to some degree, how do you know or check for these? For once, language is def not a good proxy, esp in a place with a very big international community and where most speak english anyway. How do you imagine this? I have never seen a check like this that makes any sense. It is worse than even the economic checks where people move money from an account to another and screenshot them to show they are not too poor so that their applications are not rejected. If anything, immigrant communities ime are much higher in solidarity because they need to. And in any case, it is not either fair to punish a person for just being introvert or not having many friends or sth.
> high-income immigrant
No I did not mention high income, and imo it has nothing to do with this discussion. Maybe it was a misunderstanding with OP who mentioned "net positive". I interpreted "net positive" as working consistently rather than high income necessarily. I do not think people with high income should have more rights to PR than people with low income, though this is sadly the case in many ways.
1) Because taxes and money are not everything. You do not buy welfare, it’s not an insurance. It’s a social safety net provided by the society irrespective of how much money you contributed to it. So the criteria for getting welfare must be something else, for example are you a permanent member of the society in question.
2) The actual non-exhaustive list of ways to prove you are integrated in Switzerland, Kt. ZH is: do your children go to the public school? Are you a member of a local sports, arts or similar club? Do you have regular social contact with Swiss citizens? Can you speak the local language? Do you volunteer in the local fire department? Did you volunteer for the Civil Defense Service?
To be fair, for permanent residence the bar on any of these questions is quite low. But that is how you sensibly check that.
> criteria for getting welfare must be something else, for example are you a permanent member of the society in question
But the discussion is about exactly who should be legally recognised as "permanent member of the society". I am saying that a long term resident in a country, who participates in the economic and social life should have the same access to welfare. A person who lives somewhere long term (several years, whatever threshold we want to set there) is de facto "a permanent member of the society". The discussion is about when one can be considered such a "permanent member of the society" so that they can be included to the welfare etc intended for "permanent members of the society".
And in any case, nothing is really really permanent, and native-born people may leave a country to live abroad any time (eg many central and north europeans move to the south when they retire), upon which, typically, they lose access to the aspects of the welfare system in their native country as they stop being residents there.
1b)
> You do not buy welfare, it’s not an insurance
It is still an exchange/contract, though indeed more like a social contract than a "business relationship" as others here state. In most places I know some form of economic sustainance/stability (as like working full time for a certain period of time) is the primary requirement for permanent residence. I do not think the value of a human should depend on job and money either, as there are many ways to contribute to a society, and some are def more meaningful than certain jobs, but working and paying taxes is in general part of that social contract.
2) I do not see anything wrong with that list, my problem is when one is expected to work continuously full time, have kids, study the language at a high level and volunteer around in order to get permanent residence, all at the same time, which is not very easy esp for people who work relatively demanding jobs.
3) I am not sure why they mention it, they apologise for mentioning it but do not seem to explain where it is relevant. However I do not think that their (or any such) argument actually needs a high salary to stand.
You don’t need to meet all of them. You need to meet any of them.
Which makes it almost trivial for parents for example because you just need to send your kids to a normal school instead of an expat only private school.
Exactly! Though it often seems that people conveniently forget the reverse scenario. Them in other countries is fine and relax about requirements, others in their country, not so much.
One country is not in any way obligated or expected to have the same entry requirements as another. It is based on priorities of the state and those differ greatly between states.
The water crunch only seems bad because everybody is trying to maintain the status quo and it's egregiously wasted on things we dont need to. 25% of the Colorado river is used to just grow alfalfa [0]. We over subsidize corn and soy so much we have to invent uses for it. We dont need corn ethanol in our fuel and we dont need to use the precious water in the West to grow alfalfa for Saudi Arabia [1]
The point of datacenters in space is about control not economics. They dont want the masses which they are trying to replace with AI and robots to have access to the datacenters running everything.
You might be on to something. Starship is moving its launch facility to Florida. Elon previously suspected a sniper shooting at the SpaceX rockets. Moving the launches to Cape Canaveral would make them much harder for a sniper to target. And his terrestrial data centers are easily accessible for anyone who has a grudge with him. Moving those to space would also isolate him from the masses uprising.
Oddly suspicious how this comment which was not one of the first comments which does not address the content at all but the tone skyrocketed to the top.
The tone is written as abrasive to anyone who doesn't already agree, which shows this is more of an emotional opinion piece than open minded objective research.
Hype cycles never last forever, but that doesn't mean all the value has been tapped by any means. The fact that modern GPUs can solve ridiculously complex high dimensional functions is a superpower in every possible field of research.
Cant recall ever being weighed as a passenger and in this day and age you have passengers who are 120 lbs and 300 lbs yet you get penalized if your suitcase is 1 lbs over the limit.
Nobody cares how much learning you did but how hard it was to get into the university you got your piece of paper from. Coding bootcamps eventually figured this out so they started to have selective admissions. Universities like Harvard have rampant grade inflation and you have to try to fail out of yet still have prestige due to selective admissions.
My cynical take why TUIs are back is because people operating in the terminal became a signal that you were competent and once people figured that out everybody started doing it. The reason people were operating in the terminal is lost of them but hey it makes you look like a 1337 hacker. It's the same thing with side projects of past decades. People who had side projects cared about the craft for more than a paycheck and tended to be more competent. Then every person just trying to land a job suddenly had "side projects". Gotta have those green squares on github.
> My cynical take why TUIs are back is because people operating in the terminal became a signal that you were competent and once people figured that out everybody started doing it
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