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"not perfect" is a _very_ big simplification of what China is though

Isn't that the same to every major superpower?

Whatbaoutism at it's finest.

Have a peek at the fredom indx and the press freedom index for China. Guess where they stand?

You know about the chinese internet firewall.

You can't trust any data from the CCP.

And please don't equate the aberration that is the Trump administration with "regular" US administrations (and this is coming from a non US person).


People in China live under totalitarian rule, that much is true.

But how free is the average North American, where getting sick can bring you and your family financial ruin? Where the "free press" is controlled by corporations who are also the main source of campaign funding for politicians? Where their urban spaces are designed to require you to have a car and promote complete atomized individuals?


All these things are from the private sector and may be left behind if you like (do younger generations even listen to corporate news?)

The real issues are government surveillance and it increasingly getting involved in my personal matters, but it’s still more free than any other country I could go to. Look at countries in Europe like the UK without true freedom of press arresting people for mean tweets and giving them years in prison.


> All these things are from the private sector

Are they really? All of the cases I listed are consequences of Public Policy, no exceptions.


Regular US administrations that commited war crimes in half the world for decades. But apparently it only matters what they do in the US.

Indexes made by Europeans and Americans to congratulate themselves are not reliable.

Exactly. Even if you don't buy into western biases, it's heavily reliant on subjective perception surveys. Hardly proof of anything

We can talk about all this stuff on an American form, but good luck talking about any of China's issues on a Chinese Forum. Lets not talk about how China regularly kills Catholic priests and bishops. Anyone who tries to glaze China is a propagandized fool.

You’re right, for now, but I think trump will try to turn America into a dictatorship.

..you forgot to mention that any technology in China, foreign or domestic, can and will be used for and to the benefit of the -military- party.. But like someone posted: "not perfect" fits the bill.

Check out the Sean Ryan Show with Palmer Luckey on China and military tech.


Ok? The same can be said about the US

Same goes for every country on earth?

No. There is no moral equivalence with totalitarianism.

Modern China isn't exactly totalitarian though and US is rapidly converging with China in that regard anyway.

How totalitarian is exactly totalitarian? I asked chatgpt and it gave few points

- Control goes beyond politics

- A single, all-encompassing ideology

- No meaningful private sphere

- Mass mobilization and propaganda

- Extensive surveillance and repression

Seems like China is ticking all the boxes.


You forgot

- No freedom of religion


Dear flagger, did I say something incorrect?

> No meaningful private sphere

Have you ever been to China? Everyone has their own private lives. It's no different than any other country in that respect.

In China, you rarely interact with the government in daily life. Most people are just living their lives.


Honestly thought you were listing traits that the US has now till the last line.

In what universe does the US not have "meaningful private sphere"?

Meta, Google and co control all your private data. GDPR is a european thing not an american or chinese thing.

CIA/FBI have their own massive data centers (see snowden) inkl. their own older bigger palantr style software.

Elon Musk was able to connect a Starlink server to your data and no one cared. He and his Duche aeh sry doge baby boys were able to access and download all Social Security Numbers.

If someone knows were Putin and all the other world leaders are at any given moment, I would bet its USA first than China if even because i don't think China cares that much about it than USA does.

And everyone out of scope of this, lives probably in some rural USA town were no one cares for you at all anyway, but thats the same thing as in China.


Really laugh my ass off, so much whataboutism and American centrism when the debate is whether China is trustworthy on AI. Given your ignorance you should go and do your research, but I will help you a bit here.

- Control goes beyond politics

state corporation monopoly, 党支部 in private sector, crackdowns on NGOs and charities.

- A single, all-encompassing ideology

Party led, mandarin speaking Han Chinese nationalism, blended with Little Pink's unquestionable support for Xi and the party.

- No meaningful private sphere

社区网格员

- Mass mobilization and propaganda

We saw mobilizations on Chinese social media, attacking celebrities who don't openly say anything the party wants them to say. Mobilization in real life is rare though, cos it had shown it can backfire.

- Extensive surveillance and repression

Do I really need to explain this?


Which comment was this supposed to be a reply to?

Just as long as you don't openly mention the "three Ts".

Which are the current nontotalitarian superpowers?


China is not totalitarian. Many people believe that China is still like 1950s-60s-era Maoist China, but it's just not.

tiananmen square was in 1989. Hong Kong was snuffed out like a light. Covid saw people caged and sealed in their houses. You do not need to look back at the cultural revolution to see the prc for what it is.

and the Kent State shootings were in 1970.

Being self-righteous and a yank doesn't make sense, country of war mongers, something that cant be said of China.


Kent state saw 4 people unjustly killed. Tiananmen killed 100 to 1000x as many people and that’s just in the area with the reporters. The crackdowns in the other 300 cities without cameras were almost certainly much more brutal.

Going further, discussion about Kent state won’t get you in any trouble in the US, but discussing Tiananmen in China will get a far different response from the government.

Comparing the two only highlights just how much more extreme and repressive the Chinese system is despite all the US moves toward authoritarianism.


Clearly I’ve hit a nerve if you’re stooping to whataboutism. Perhaps you should reflect on why that is.

Is your contention that Hong Kong is also a totalitarian society? Have you been to Hong Kong in the last 5 years? I feel like people saying these sorts of things are just completely divorced from reality.

> Covid saw people caged and sealed in their houses.

No. There were a few incidents very early on, when everyone was (quite understandably) panicking about a new, deadly virus that nobody had ever seen before, when some local city officials barred the doors of people who had just come from Wuhan. That was a scandal inside China, and it was immediately reversed.

What China did do quite extensively was border quarantine, and during localized outbreaks (caused by cases that slipped through quarantine at the border), mass testing and quarantine measures. This was during a once-in-a-generation pandemic that killed millions of people. In China, these measures saved several million lives. The estimates are that China's overall death rate was about 25% that of the US, and these measures are the reason. By the way, Taiwan and Australia took nearly identical measures, and I very much doubt that you would call them totalitarian societies.


> That was a scandal inside China, and it was immediately reversed.

Tell it to the people in Wuhan, and Shanghai, Urumqi, and other cities that had lockdowns. I was in Shanghai in 2022, I was confined to my apartment for nearly 3 months, you couldn't be more wrong.


Shanghai was locked down as a health measure during a major outbreak in the middle of a pandemic that killed millions of people around the world.

Lockdowns were done in many places in the world, including in Taiwan. I get that you're angry about being inconvenienced, but you weren't living in a totalitarian state. You were inconvenienced because there was a massive public health emergency, and the government had the choice of either locking down one city or letting the virus spread to the rest of the country and kill millions of people.


God I wish I could just block you. So called inconveniences in the name of so called massive public health emergency? First of all it was the Omicron variant, we knew its mortality rate is low, second it did spread to the rest of the country by the end of 2022 and killed millions of people, so what was the fucking point? If you have to downplay all suffering by calling them inconveniences, I guess there's no one could convince you anyway, you better hope it doesn't happen to you.

Anyway here are few links and videos for those curious what happened

The Initium's timeline of the whole thing https://campaign.theinitium.com/20220506-mainland-covid-shan...

A viral video on Shanghai lock down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBdOXwdBn5s

Forced transfer to Fangcang quarantine center without testing positive https://youtu.be/NQfmOTB_naA

Spoiled food in groceries https://www.sohu.com/a/539911328_118622

Community effort to collect the names of those who died, whether it is covid or othe medical conditions or suicide(the og Airtable is down) https://github.com/augustuscaesarr/runrunrun/blob/main/%E6%9...

Here's a fun one, a fake app for Covid Health Code, which was required to enter any public space and private business and even your home https://ilovexjp.pages.dev/

And it is fit to finish with Shanghai protesters shouting Xi Jinping Step Down, Dec 2022 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDAX8UO4ZQA


The Omicron variant killed more people worldwide (including in the US) than any other variant.

You were personally subject to quarantine measures in early 2022, and that irks you. On the hand, if you spent the pandemic in Shanghai, you were more free to go about your life than people were in the West for most of 2020-2021.

None of this is "totalitarianism."


Do not fucking reply to me, this is harassment.

You're so soft

lol great way to lose an argument.

What argument? It was just contradiction, he didn't care how much evidences and points I brought. 3 months of trauma and depression and it is just merely irk in his eyes. It was just an unfunny, callous version monty python's sketch.

> Hong Kong was snuffed out like a light.

I'm in Hong Kong right now. Seems like it is still here to me.


That's also the current US administration.

Luckily laws still stand somewhat.

( And Trump ain't smart enough)


Trump's smarter than he lets on. He plays the buffoon in public, but he's smart enough to have gotten elected twice. Which is two times more than I've managed to.

Based on what is he smart? Every objective datapoint says he's an idiot that fails upwards.

The only thing he was successful in, was literally exaggerating and overselling his capabilities ( eg. He directed the apprentice, it's fake)


You don't have to be smart to be elected. You have to be a good liar. And it's really easy to be a good liar when you have gotten so deep into bullshitting that you believe your own lies.

Also, being useful to the right people helps. Because they will dump their own money and time into bolstering your campaign.


You can say the same about the US

they compare it to fascist USA though

Ask a gay, a black or a Japanese how it feels living in China.

so alabama and texas are enemies to the US the same way china is?

Outside of gay people, the rest is your projection: they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent. US is heavily heterogenous and despite that you segregated like a third of society at the time.

Ridiculous take.


Sorry, I have lived and worked there 6 years in different cities and I do speak a fluent (though with a very heavy French accent) mandarin. It's totally not my projection but my experience first hand.

During the "diaoyu island" incident in the 2010s the sushi shop 200m near my appartment got sacked, and all japanese-brand car get smashed.

My black (and indian) friends all complained how hard they were treated. And when talking with my Chinese friends they all had very .... interesting... point of view.

Edit: also, I'm not from the US


>Outside of gay people, the rest is your projection: they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent.

You do know that Chinese people do go to other countries and that we all can see how insanely racist they can be right?


Your take is about as ridiculous. China isn’t at all how you described it.

> they are homogenous society

No, China is not homogenous.

> racial problems are nonexistent

Ask a non-Han about how they feel about that statement.


> they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent

Riiiiiiiiiiiight:

https://ipvm.com/reports/hikvision-uyghur

Guess they solved all the "racial problems" by deploying surveillance cameras to help shove all the undesirables into camps. /s


> The least likely are Moroccans and Venezuelans

Weird in the Venezuelans case, as there is no restrictions for double nationality and having only Venezuelan citizenship doesn't have many advantages. I would guess that it is because most Venezuelans living there already have an European passport due to parents/grandparent, so no need/can't get a third


Cannot only if the other European country does not allow dual nationality.

If they are permanently settled in the UK surely it would be better to have British citizenship rather than that of a country they do not live in?

The nationalities listed are all very small groups in the UK. maybe they are not really permanently settled? Someone who moves somewhere for work might end up living there a decade (and in the UK that would mean getting indefinite leave to remain) and then returning.


That is not a `good reason`, that is `convenience` and it shouldn't be used to push to install an app from increasingly hostile nations/corporations.

> It's not like they are getting some long term benefit of having the app on your phone. It's just because WebNFC can't read passports.

The same way we complain that Facebook, Tiktok, etc gather too much data from app install, so can a government agency.


You are literally sharing biometric passport information with the government for an ETA in this app. Information sharing is the whole point.


The information on my passport is of comparatively little value compared to the information on my devices. Most states could get my passport information with little more than a friendly request to my government, same for most, access to my phone however.

Why give up more information than is strictly necessary, so you can tap your passport on your phone? Not convincing imo.


Because for many people with poor eyesight, poor English or computer literacy tapping a passport is far easier than typing the data in with no risk of transcription errors.


You clearly don't know anything about the history of the country. It was never about classism or racism, venezuelans are racially diverse with lots of mix between the original indigenous inhabitants, colonial europeans, african slaves and then the second wave of european immigrants after the WWII.

> The reason I say, the root cause is racism and classism, is because they totally underestimated the power of the people to overthrow their corrupt regime.

There was no 'regime', there was a democracy with corruption problems but that was still functional. Nor it was 'overthrown', a populist was elected due to disenchantment and the populist dismantle the state institutions and turn it into an oligarchy ran by his circle.


> There was no 'regime', there was a democracy with corruption problems

OK.

> but that was still functional

Clearly not, because Chavez was elected despite having attempted a coup d'etat previously. Clearly not, because the coup d'etat against Chavez failed because the population was overwhelming supporting him.

> populist dismantle the state institutions and turn it into an oligarchy ran by his circle

Which was necessary because previously it was an oligarchy ran by an opposing circle, which lost favor with the people.

> It was never about classism or racism

It's classism, partly fueled by racism, which causes the ruling elite in Latin America to have such disdain for the rest of the population, that they believe they can take control of the country and govern it as if they were some kind of aristocracy, and completely ignore those beneath them, because they aren't of the right class, are not white enough, and don't have enough wealth, to be taken into consideration.


~60% of the 8M people that fled Venezuela are incline to support a military intervention, that number goes down to 40% estimated for those still inside, so about more than half the country want external action to get out of the dictatorship. That percentage is for external action, the percentage that voted against the dictator in the stolen election last year was calculated at 76%; so no, is definitely not just the MAGA fan base that want to see something happen.


A bad situation is not improved by an even worse one. It does speaks volumes to the desperation of Venezuelans that many would rather their own country get invaded if that rids them of Maduro.


So you know better than the poor brown people?


Except last few times it went so well for the countries where "intervention" happen.

Also are they in favor to replacing this dictator with another pro-Trump one?

Current US president have a weak spot for every dictator and authoritarian leader in the world: El Salvador, Russia, Hungary, etc.

Might be not the best candidate to deal with dictators...


So Maria machado, the recipient of the Nobel peace prize in 2025 is a would be dictator ?


We have some interesting precedents to compare notes with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi

That did not quite go according to plan either. Definitely not a dictatorship but not exactly clean and the end result is not so far off from where they started. Venezuela could easily end up worse than it is today.


Why do you believe some civil opposition leader will end up im power after foreign military intervention?

Usually people who end up in power are ones best at shooting others invluding shooting civil politicians.


> Also are they in favor to replacing this dictator with another pro-Trump one?

When your options are being poor, starved to death or dissapeared during the last 25 years, you take any chance for a change


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